Joe Pa

[Howard Holey Hail]

I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College -- I had thought that there were a lot of Bobby
Bowden type grumblings about him being around too long and needing to step
aside. (I've learned from the Catholic Church scandals that a lot of
people, unfortunately, are willing to shrug off cases of authorities who
don't report child abuse.)

Does anyone with better knowledge of Penn State explain whether the crowds
were genuinely loving the guy, or was it closer to the type of uproar and
smashing that happens from time to time on campuses after a team is in a
big game, regardless of whether it wins or loses?

[Jeff Green]

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College -- I had thought that there were a lot of Bobby
Bowden type grumblings about him being around too long and needing to step
aside. (I've learned from the Catholic Church scandals that a lot of
people, unfortunately, are willing to shrug off cases of authorities who
don't report child abuse.)
Does anyone with better knowledge of Penn State explain whether the crowds
were genuinely loving the guy, or was it closer to the type of uproar and
smashing that happens from time to time on campuses after a team is in a
big game, regardless of whether it wins or loses?

A guy over at G+ says that State College is his home town, that it's a
'rally 'round the flag' reaction and that pretty much everyone is sick
of the media attention and wishes they would all go home. That many
other people could/should have gone to the police who did not and were
not fired so why just JP?

I take no position on the issue since it's not my town, not my kid(s)
and there's way more important things in my life to worry about than
this Penn State thing. And, I find the massive hysteria an indication of
a very sick society. But that's just me.

J

[Veronique]

Post by Jeff Green

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College...

I take no position on the issue since it's not my town, not my kid(s)
and there's way more important things in my life to worry about than
this Penn State thing. And, I find the massive hysteria an indication of
a very sick society. But that's just me.

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and
compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over
the world...would do this, it would change the earth. " -- William
Faulkner



V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[Les Albert]

Post by Jeff Green

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College...

I take no position on the issue since it's not my town, not my kid(s)
and there's way more important things in my life to worry about than
this Penn State thing. And, I find the massive hysteria an indication of
a very sick society. But that's just me.

You march to the tune of a different glockenspiel.

Les

[a***@yahoo.com]

Post by Veronique

Post by Jeff Green

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College...

I take no position on the issue since it's not my town, not my kid(s)
and there's way more important things in my life to worry about than
this Penn State thing. And, I find the massive hysteria an indication of
a very sick society. But that's just me.

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and
compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over
the world...would do this, it would change the earth. " -- William
Faulkner

As someone who grew up in State College (I did not go to college at
PSU though) the whole thing makes me sad. I also do not know if would
have had the guts to do what Faulkner suggests if it had involved
someone I had been close to for so long.

[Veronique]

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by Veronique

Post by Jeff Green

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College...

I take no position on the issue since it's not my town, not my kid(s)
and there's way more important things in my life to worry about than
this Penn State thing. And, I find the massive hysteria an indication of
a very sick society. But that's just me.

"Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and
compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over
the world...would do this, it would change the earth. " -- William
Faulkner

As someone who grew up in State College (I did not go to college at
PSU though) the whole thing makes me sad. I  also do not know if would
have had the guts to do what Faulkner suggests if it had involved
someone I had been close to for so long.

That, I suspect, is everyone's secret terror.


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[Jared]

On 11/10/2011 7:48 PM, Jeff Green wrote:
[...]

Post by Jeff Green
A guy over at G+ says that State College is his home town, that it's a
'rally 'round the flag' reaction and that pretty much everyone is sick
of the media attention and wishes they would all go home. That many
other people could/should have gone to the police who did not and were
not fired so why just JP?

False premise. Others were indicted.

[Boron Elgar]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College -- I had thought that there were a lot of Bobby
Bowden type grumblings about him being around too long and needing to step
aside. (I've learned from the Catholic Church scandals that a lot of
people, unfortunately, are willing to shrug off cases of authorities who
don't report child abuse.)
Does anyone with better knowledge of Penn State explain whether the crowds
were genuinely loving the guy, or was it closer to the type of uproar and
smashing that happens from time to time on campuses after a team is in a
big game, regardless of whether it wins or loses?

Among TP's friends who are alumni of PS and expressed an opinion, the
feelings were anger over a nasty situation they felt was deliberately
brushed under the rug by all involved, and not over JP's firing. Small
sample size, so take it anecdotally.

The joke among them -

A woman who goes after younger guys is called a cougar. What do you
call a man who goes after younger guys?

A Nittany Lion.

[Veronique]

Post by Boron Elgar
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College -- I had thought that there were a lot of Bobby
Bowden type grumblings about him being around too long and needing to step
aside.  (I've learned from the Catholic Church scandals that a lot of
people, unfortunately, are willing to shrug off cases of authorities who
don't report child abuse.)
Does anyone with better knowledge of Penn State explain whether the crowds
were genuinely loving the guy, or was it closer to the type of uproar and
smashing that happens from time to time on campuses after a team is in a
big game, regardless of whether it wins or loses?

Among TP's friends who are alumni of PS and expressed an opinion, the
feelings were anger over a nasty situation they felt was deliberately
brushed under the rug by all involved, and not over JP's firing. Small
sample size, so take it anecdotally.

Omelas. It keeps coming up:
http://blog.sfgate.com/richmond/2011/11/11/penn-state-happy-valley-the-good-citizens-of-omelas/?tsp=1

Post by Boron Elgar
The joke among them -
A woman who goes after younger guys is called a cougar. What do you
call a man who goes after younger guys?
A Nittany Lion.

They'll have to change the name of the team. Seriously.


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[B***@invalid.com]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:18:58 -0800 (PST), Veronique

Post by Veronique
http://blog.sfgate.com/richmond/2011/11/11/penn-state-happy-valley-the-good-citizens-of-omelas/?tsp=1

TY

[Veronique]

Post by B***@invalid.com
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:18:58 -0800 (PST), Veronique

http://blog.sfgate.com/richmond/2011/11/11/penn-state-happy-valley-th...

TY

Here's another with the same reference, not quite so elegant:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2011/11/10/omelas-state-university/


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[B***@invalid.com]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:26:35 -0800 (PST), Veronique

Post by Veronique

Post by B***@invalid.com
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:18:58 -0800 (PST), Veronique

http://blog.sfgate.com/richmond/2011/11/11/penn-state-happy-valley-th...

TY

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2011/11/10/omelas-state-university/
V.

TY again

[B***@invalid.com]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College --

Grand jury report on alleged Penn State sex abuse:

http://documents.latimes.com/grand-jury-report-suspected-penn-state-sex-abuse/

http://tinyurl.com/7s2ws2t

[M C Hamster]

Post by Boron Elgar
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College --

http://documents.latimes.com/grand-jury-report-suspected-penn-state-sex-abuse/
http://tinyurl.com/7s2ws2t

This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that, yes,
Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane gunman,
scores of people and whole institutions were supporting and ennabling
him and ignoring him and covering for him. Doubtless this is largely
due to the importance of Big Football to PSU, which makes it
additionally deeply troubling. It's a real testament to groupthink
and passing the buck, under conditions where acting bravely is not
encouraged.

In related news, the murderer of Kitty Genovese was denied parole
again.

[bill van]

Post by M C Hamster

Post by Boron Elgar
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College --

http://documents.latimes.com/grand-jury-report-suspected-penn-state-sex-abuse
/
http://tinyurl.com/7s2ws2t

This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that, yes,
Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane gunman,
scores of people and whole institutions were supporting and ennabling
him and ignoring him and covering for him. Doubtless this is largely
due to the importance of Big Football to PSU, which makes it
additionally deeply troubling. It's a real testament to groupthink
and passing the buck, under conditions where acting bravely is not
encouraged.

It follows the pattern of everything from the Catholic Church to the Boy
Scouts, in various countries. When sexual abuse of children occurs
within an institution, the institution tends to try to protect itself --
and its friends -- by covering up. But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.

bill

[M C Hamster]

Post by bill van

Post by M C Hamster

Post by Boron Elgar
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College --

http://documents.latimes.com/grand-jury-report-suspected-penn-state-sex-abuse
/
http://tinyurl.com/7s2ws2t

This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that, yes,
Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane gunman,
scores of people and whole institutions were supporting and ennabling
him and ignoring him and covering for him. Doubtless this is largely
due to the importance of Big Football to PSU, which makes it
additionally deeply troubling. It's a real testament to groupthink
and passing the buck, under conditions where acting bravely is not
encouraged.

It follows the pattern of everything from the Catholic Church to the Boy
Scouts, in various countries. When sexual abuse of children occurs
within an institution, the institution tends to try to protect itself --
and its friends -- by covering up. But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.

Much or most of this activity took place back around 2000 to 2002, I
believe. What caused it to finally come out in the open after all
this time, I wonder? I don't think I've seen that info.

[Veronique]

Post by M C Hamster

Post by bill van

Post by M C Hamster

Post by Boron Elgar
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College --

http://documents.latimes.com/grand-jury-report-suspected-penn-state-s...
/
http://tinyurl.com/7s2ws2t

This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that, yes,
Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane gunman,
scores of people and whole institutions were supporting and ennabling
him and ignoring him and covering for him.  Doubtless this is largely
due to the importance of Big Football to PSU, which makes it
additionally deeply troubling.  It's a real testament to groupthink
and passing the buck, under conditions where acting bravely is not
encouraged.

It follows the pattern of everything from the Catholic Church to the Boy
Scouts, in various countries. When sexual abuse of children occurs
within an institution, the institution tends to try to protect itself --
and its friends -- by covering up. But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.

Much or most of this activity took place back around 2000 to 2002, I
believe.  What caused it to finally come out in the open after all
this time, I wonder?  I don't think I've seen that info.

I believe it was one of the boys on the high school team that Sandusky
volunteered to coach after his retirement from Penn State whose mother
complained to the high school principal in 2008.


The Grand Jury report is pretty interesting...Penn State did conduct a
more thorough investigation into Sandusky's conduct with the children
in his care back in 1998, when (I believe) another child's mother
complained about Sandusky showering with her son in the locker room.


We note it was in 1999 that Sandusky retired, despite the fair
certainty before that he would be tapped to replace Paterno. And he
retired at the early age of 55 (especially strange, considering
Paterno was still coaching at age 84.)


I don't see that Penn State is "acting" so much as "desperately
scrambling".


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[Jared]

On 11/11/2011 4:42 PM, M C Hamster wrote:
[...]

Post by M C Hamster
Much or most of this activity took place back around 2000 to 2002, I
believe. What caused it to finally come out in the open after all
this time, I wonder? I don't think I've seen that info.

A high school football coach reported an assault that happened in 2007.

[Jared]

On 11/11/2011 4:34 PM, bill van wrote:
[...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.

A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

[Veronique]

Post by Jared
[...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

One wonders how much worse it will get as information comes out at the
trial. As it goes along, it looks more and more like the *only*
ethical and reasonable action taken by various University officials
was the termination of Paterno and the PSU President so quickly after
the Grand Jury report was released.


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[bill van]

Post by Jared
[...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

I was referring to PSU recently firing the guy and the coach who had
covered it up. Late in the game, yes, but that's why I used the word
"eventually." If you've followed any of the infamous historical cases,
such as the many flare-ups in the Catholic Church, you'll find that most
times the perpetrators were simply transferred to new opportunities to
molest, and those who did the covering-up often achieved significant
career success.

By the way, the several news stories I have read or seen about the
assistant coach being told to stay away from the next game because his
life has been threatened do not make one important thing clear: Do they
hate him for blowing the whistle, or for not blowing it loud enough and
persistently enough? I assumed the latter was more likely, but the
stories were not explicit.

bill

[M C Hamster]

Post by bill van

Post by Jared
[...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

I was referring to PSU recently firing the guy and the coach who had
covered it up.

Well, it's a little hard to cover up a grand jury verdict, no? But
sure, I give the trustees a little bit of credit for firing JoPa.

[Lee Ayrton]

Post by bill van
By the way, the several news stories I have read or seen about the
assistant coach being told to stay away from the next game because his
life has been threatened do not make one important thing clear: Do they
hate him for blowing the whistle, or for not blowing it loud enough and
persistently enough? I assumed the latter was more likely, but the
stories were not explicit.

I'm going to guess that it is coming from both camps.

One wonders if McQueary had seen Sandusky strangling a hooker in the
locker room he would have scampered away to tell his father and Paterno.

[Tim]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:48:38 +0000 (UTC), Lee Ayrton

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by bill van
By the way, the several news stories I have read or seen about the
assistant coach being told to stay away from the next game because his
life has been threatened do not make one important thing clear: Do they
hate him for blowing the whistle, or for not blowing it loud enough and
persistently enough? I assumed the latter was more likely, but the
stories were not explicit.

I'm going to guess that it is coming from both camps.
One wonders if McQueary had seen Sandusky strangling a hooker in the
locker room he would have scampered away to tell his father and Paterno.

Tell him what?

[Veronique]

Post by Tim
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:48:38 +0000 (UTC), Lee Ayrton

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by bill van
By the way, the several news stories I have read or seen about the
assistant coach being told to stay away from the next game because his
life has been threatened do not make one important thing clear: Do they
hate him for blowing the whistle, or for not blowing it loud enough and
persistently enough? I assumed the latter was more likely, but the
stories were not explicit.

I'm going to guess that it is coming from both camps.
One wonders if McQueary had seen Sandusky strangling a hooker in the
locker room he would have scampered away to tell his father and Paterno.

Tell him what?

"Hey dad, I saw Sandusky strangling someone in the locker room. Should
I go to the police or what? It's just a hooker, not a big deal, I've
heard rumors he's done this before and he's usually pretty circumspect
about where he hides the bodies. Yeah, you're right, dad, let's kick
it over to JoePa; since Sandusky was killing her in the locker room,
it's really a football issue. No reason to mess up this year's season
by getting the police involved."


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[Lee Ayrton]

Post by Tim
On Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:48:38 +0000 (UTC), Lee Ayrton

Post by Lee Ayrton

Post by bill van
By the way, the several news stories I have read or seen about the
assistant coach being told to stay away from the next game because
Do they hate him for blowing the whistle, or for not blowing it loud
enough and persistently enough? I assumed the latter was more
likely, but the stories were not explicit.

I'm going to guess that it is coming from both camps.
One wonders if McQueary had seen Sandusky strangling a hooker in the
locker room he would have scampered away to tell his father and Paterno.

Tell him what?

"Hey dad, I saw Sandusky strangling someone in the locker room. Should I
go to the police or what? It's just a hooker, not a big deal, I've heard
rumors he's done this before and he's usually pretty circumspect about
where he hides the bodies. Yeah, you're right, dad, let's kick it over
to JoePa; since Sandusky was killing her in the locker room, it's really
a football issue. No reason to mess up this year's season by getting the
police involved."

Yes, exactly. Especially the part about running off instead of
intervening.

Reportedly, 10 more victims have made themselves known. I expected as
much would happen; After Sandusky's children's charity was running I
don't imagine that he restrained himself much.

[S. Checker]

Post by bill van
I was referring to PSU recently firing the guy and the coach who had
covered it up. Late in the game, yes, but that's why I used the word
"eventually." If you've followed any of the infamous historical cases,
such as the many flare-ups in the Catholic Church, you'll find that most
times the perpetrators were simply transferred to new opportunities to
molest, and those who did the covering-up often achieved significant
career success.

And like Goldilocks in the bed, some of them are still there.

[M C Hamster]

Post by Jared
[...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

That really is amazing. I'm also confused about the fact that there
didn't seem to be leaked news about the fact that the grand jury was
investigating this... unless those stories were just completely buried
behind the latest injury report to the PSU offensive left tackle, etc.
This seemed to come completely out of the blue... 10 years late.

[Veronique]

Post by Jared
[...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

That really is amazing.  I'm also confused about the fact that there
didn't seem to be leaked news about the fact that the grand jury was
investigating this... unless those stories were just completely buried
behind the latest injury report to the PSU offensive left tackle, etc.
This seemed to come completely out of the blue... 10 years late.

Here's SFGate's timeline of the developments from Grand Jury to
firing:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/11/12/national/a083339S98.DTL


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[Lee Ayrton]

Post by M C Hamster

On 11/11/2011 4:34 PM, bill van wrote: [...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high school,
which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation got
started, not through PSU.

That really is amazing. I'm also confused about the fact that there
didn't seem to be leaked news about the fact that the grand jury was
investigating this... unless those stories were just completely buried
behind the latest injury report to the PSU offensive left tackle, etc.
This seemed to come completely out of the blue... 10 years late.

Wait until people start wondering again about Ray Gricar:

<http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/16080125/gricars-2005-
disappearance-only-one-of-many-mysteries-in-psu-scandal>

[a***@yahoo.com]

Post by Lee Ayrton

On 11/11/2011 4:34 PM, bill van wrote: [...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high school,
which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation got
started, not through PSU.

That really is amazing.  I'm also confused about the fact that there
didn't seem to be leaked news about the fact that the grand jury was
investigating this... unless those stories were just completely buried
behind the latest injury report to the PSU offensive left tackle, etc.
This seemed to come completely out of the blue... 10 years late.

<http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/16080125/gricars-2005-
disappearance-only-one-of-many-mysteries-in-psu-scandal>

You only have to wait 2 more posts for that.

[Beaver Fever]

Post by Lee Ayrton

On 11/11/2011 4:34 PM, bill van wrote: [...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high school,
which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation got
started, not through PSU.

That really is amazing. I'm also confused about the fact that there
didn't seem to be leaked news about the fact that the grand jury was
investigating this... unless those stories were just completely buried
behind the latest injury report to the PSU offensive left tackle, etc.
This seemed to come completely out of the blue... 10 years late.

<http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/16080125/gricars-2005-
disappearance-only-one-of-many-mysteries-in-psu-scandal>

They are never going to find him

[Snidely]

Post by Beaver Fever

Post by Lee Ayrton

On 11/11/2011 4:34 PM, bill van wrote: [...]

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high school,
which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation got
started, not through PSU.

That really is amazing. I'm also confused about the fact that there
didn't seem to be leaked news about the fact that the grand jury was
investigating this... unless those stories were just completely buried
behind the latest injury report to the PSU offensive left tackle, etc.
This seemed to come completely out of the blue... 10 years late.

<http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/16080125/gricars-2005-
disappearance-only-one-of-many-mysteries-in-psu-scandal>

They are never going to find him

Ya think?

/dps

[Luan Pham]

Post by Jared

Post by bill van
But at least Penn State eventually
acted on the information. Many institutions that covered up sex abuse
never did.
bill

They never acted. The officials who heard about the rape in 2002 never
reported it, denied it was reported to them in their testimony under
oath, and have now been indicted by the Grand Jury for perjury.
A victim of assault from 2007 told his mother, who told his high
school, which reported it to the police. That's how the investigation
got started, not through PSU.

Last I heard this go back in 1998.

[a***@yahoo.com]

Post by M C Hamster
This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that, yes,
Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane gunman,
scores of people and whole institutions were supporting and ennabling
him and ignoring him and covering for him.  Doubtless this is largely
due to the importance of Big Football to PSU, which makes it
additionally deeply troubling.  It's a real testament to groupthink
and passing the buck, under conditions where acting bravely is not
encouraged.

On Thursday my mother told me this bizarre story
http://tinyurl.com/7xywhx7

In 1998, a prosecutor decided that no charges would be filed against
Sandusky. Then the prosecutor disappeared, never to be seen again.

Post by M C Hamster
In related news, the murderer of Kitty Genovese was denied parole
again.

Manson wont be paroled for a while either. (Is he still alive?)

[B***@invalid.com]

Post by a***@yahoo.com
On Thursday my mother told me this bizarre story
http://tinyurl.com/7xywhx7
In 1998, a prosecutor decided that no charges would be filed against
Sandusky. Then the prosecutor disappeared, never to be seen again.

pesky commas again:

''
He doubted Gricar would have committed suicide or simply ran off
because he was happy, financially stable and often talked fondly of
his impending retirement.
""

[Mark Steese]

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by M C Hamster
This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that,
yes, Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane
gunman, scores of people and whole institutions were supporting and
ennabling him and ignoring him and covering for him.  Doubtless this
is largely due to the importance of Big Football to PSU, which makes
it additionally deeply troubling.  It's a real testament to
groupthink and passing the buck, under conditions where acting
bravely is not encouraged.

On Thursday my mother told me this bizarre story
http://tinyurl.com/7xywhx7
In 1998, a prosecutor decided that no charges would be filed against
Sandusky. Then the prosecutor disappeared, never to be seen again.

The disappearance of Ray Gricar was covered on the Investigation
Discovery Channel's show "Disappeared." As missing-persons cases go,
that one's weirder than most. Usually when somebody goes missing there
are fairly clear indications as to whether they ran off, killed
themselves, or were murdered: in Gricar's case, different bits of
evidence point towards each of those three conclusions. Somebody faked
something to make it look like something else, but nobody's really sure
who faked what.

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by M C Hamster
In related news, the murderer of Kitty Genovese was denied parole
again.

Manson wont be paroled for a while either. (Is he still alive?)

Yep. In fact, tomorrow's his 77th birthday.

[Opus the Penguin]

Post by Mark Steese
The disappearance of Ray Gricar was covered on the Investigation
Discovery Channel's show "Disappeared." As missing-persons cases
go, that one's weirder than most. Usually when somebody goes
missing there are fairly clear indications as to whether they ran
off, killed themselves, or were murdered: in Gricar's case,
different bits of evidence point towards each of those three
conclusions. Somebody faked something to make it look like
something else, but nobody's really sure who faked what.

Definitely peculiar. A good 650-700 milliCraters on the weird
disappearances scale, I'd say.

[Opus the Penguin]

Post by M C Hamster

Post by Boron Elgar
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:51:56 +0000 (UTC), Howard Holey Hail

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for
Joe Paterno in State College --

http://documents.latimes.com/grand-jury-report-suspected-penn-state
-sex-abuse/
http://tinyurl.com/7s2ws2t

This all is quite horrifying... the grand jury report shows that,
yes, Sandusky is a terrible predator, but unlike the lone insane
gunman, scores of people and whole institutions were supporting
and ennabling him and ignoring him and covering for him.
Doubtless this is largely due to the importance of Big Football to
PSU, which makes it additionally deeply troubling. It's a real
testament to groupthink and passing the buck, under conditions
where acting bravely is not encouraged.
In related news, the murderer of Kitty Genovese was denied parole
again.

Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out the
Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

According to this article, anyway, the story of witnesses who did
nothing is not supported by the available evidence:

http://www.csufresno.edu/psych/psych10/documents/kitty_genovese.pdf

Manning, R.; Levine, M; Collins, A. (September 2007). "The Kitty
Genovese murder and the social psychology of helping: The parable of
the 38 witnesses". American Psychologist 62 (6): 555–562

[a***@yahoo.com]

On Nov 22, 12:15 am, Opus the Penguin <opusthepenguin
+***@gmail.com> wrote:
parole

Post by Opus the Penguin

Post by M C Hamster
again.

Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out the
Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

Am I going to have trouble remembering this thing that you are not
describing well?

[Wally Sevits]

Post by a***@yahoo.com
On Nov 22, 12:15 am, Opus the Penguin <opusthepenguin
parole

Post by Opus the Penguin

Post by M C Hamster
again.

Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out the
Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

Am I going to have trouble remembering this thing that you are not
describing well?

It's when the remark "I didn't want to get involved" entered the
popular culture.

[Paul Madarasz]

Post by Wally Sevits

Post by a***@yahoo.com
On Nov 22, 12:15 am, Opus the Penguin <opusthepenguin
parole

Post by Opus the Penguin

Post by M C Hamster
again.

Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out the
Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

Am I going to have trouble remembering this thing that you are not
describing well?

It's when the remark "I didn't want to get involved" entered the
popular culture.

And it's the inspiration for Phil Ochs's "Outside of a Small Circle of
Friends".

[danny burstein]

Post by Paul Madarasz

Post by Wally Sevits

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by Opus the Penguin
Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out the
Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

Am I going to have trouble remembering this thing that you are not
describing well?

It's when the remark "I didn't want to get involved" entered the
popular culture.

And it's the inspiration for Phil Ochs's "Outside of a Small Circle of
Friends".

All y'all are aware, I'd hope, that the claims that BigNum of people
heard Ms. Genovese's screams and ignored her are... to put it mildly,
pretty exagerrated...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

(there was a much better writeup at oldkewgardens.com, but
that seems to have been moved and I can't find the material..)

[Snidely]

danny burstein <***@panix.com> scribbled something like ...

[attribution snipped by this time]

Post by danny burstein

Post by Opus the Penguin
Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out
the Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

All y'all are aware, I'd hope, that the claims that BigNum of people
heard Ms. Genovese's screams and ignored her are... to put it mildly,
pretty exagerrated...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
(there was a much better writeup at oldkewgardens.com, but
that seems to have been moved and I can't find the material..)

Someone, and maybe Opus can point out who, seems to be aware of that.

But maybe this case isn't an example either, judging by the headline at
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mcqueary-e-mail-i-stopped-
sandusky/2011/11/16/gIQAyZMORN_video.html>
or <http://tinyurl.com/7sogotx>

/dps

[Veronique]

Post by danny burstein

Post by Paul Madarasz

Post by Wally Sevits

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by Opus the Penguin
Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an actual
example of something at least similar to the thing it turns out the
Genovese case might not be a very good example of.

Am I going to have trouble remembering this thing that you are not
describing well?

It's when the remark "I didn't want to get involved" entered the
popular culture.

And it's the inspiration for Phil Ochs's "Outside of a Small Circle of
Friends".

All y'all are aware, I'd hope, that the claims that BigNum of people
heard Ms. Genovese's screams and ignored her are... to put it mildly,
pretty exagerrated...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
(there was a much better writeup at oldkewgardens.com, but
 that seems to have been moved and I can't find the material..)

And it looks like her killer is still alive and apparently well (after
a life of murder and mayhem), having been denied parole for the 15th
time last week.


V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep

[danny burstein]

Post by Veronique
And it looks like her killer is still alive and apparently well (after
a life of murder and mayhem), having been denied parole for the 15th
time last week.

After getting off at Saratoga
for the fourteenth time...

[Opus the Penguin]

Post by danny burstein

Post by Paul Madarasz

Post by Wally Sevits

Post by a***@yahoo.com

Post by Opus the Penguin
Maybe the Sandusky case can replace the Genovese one as an
actual example of something at least similar to the thing it
turns out the Genovese case might not be a very good example
of.

Am I going to have trouble remembering this thing that you are
not describing well?

It's when the remark "I didn't want to get involved" entered the
popular culture.

And it's the inspiration for Phil Ochs's "Outside of a Small
Circle of Friends".

All y'all are aware, I'd hope, that the claims that BigNum of
people heard Ms. Genovese's screams and ignored her are... to put
it mildly, pretty exagerrated...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
(there was a much better writeup at oldkewgardens.com, but
that seems to have been moved and I can't find the material..)

If you follow your very post upthread to my earlier one, you'll find
a link to the canonical article on the subject:

http://www.csufresno.edu/psych/psych10/documents/kitty_genovese.pdf

Manning, R.; Levine, M; Collins, A. (September 2007). "The Kitty
Genovese murder and the social psychology of helping: The parable of
the 38 witnesses". American Psychologist 62 (6): 555–562

[bobg]

Post by Howard Holey Hail
I was a little surprised to see such an outpouring of support for Joe
Paterno in State College -- I had thought that there were a lot of Bobby
Bowden type grumblings about him being around too long and needing to step
aside.  (I've learned from the Catholic Church scandals that a lot of
people, unfortunately, are willing to shrug off cases of authorities who
don't report child abuse.)

I like to think that I'm as jaded and cynical as the next (jaded,
cynical) guy - but my assumption on glancing at a headline about angry
mobs and Paterno was that it was an ANTI-child-molestation mob.

It's not like I had a lot of faith in humanity to begin with, but shit.